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Sanctifier Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 1794 Location: Good question!
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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: ~ NOW What!... Rust Removal. |
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So you're in the middle of a project and you have a problem...
No!... you hit a MAJOR HEADACHE!... NOW What!...
Here are "Tips & Tricks" that might make your life a little easier...
Bill Dickerson wrote: | TIP #1: Rust Removal Using... Coca Cola?
When I was about 12 years old and just getting interested in engines I heard my uncle swear that he got a stuck piston out of a motorcycle he had by using bottle of Coke. It had set out in the yard all winter and had rusted up inside. But we all know pop is sticky, water based and wouldn't itmake a worse mess? After all, Mom always said "don't spill your pop, it will make everything sticky".
As I grew up and got interested in cars and motorcycles myself I started to hear of other such "urban legends" and decided, hey, maybe there is something to this. The people that said it worked were quite insistant, and there sure was no proof that it did NOT work. So I decided to investigate. (amazing what little it takes to entertain me)
So here is what I've found - many carbonated beverages will remove rust. This is because the gas used, carbon dioxide when mixed with water, makes carbonic acid. To make rust, the iron oxidizes - it combines with oxygen. This is why rust is also called iron oxide. The carbonic acid reverses this reaction - this reversal is called "reduction." Here's a better reason - take a look at your Coke can - it has phosphoric acid as an ingredient. Phosphoric acid is the basis of Naval Jelly, a commercial product used for rust removal. Phosphoric acid dissolves iron oxide very quickly while etching metallic iron very slowly so you can leave metal in phosphoric acid with little damage.
The downside is that all acids contribute some hydrogen to the metal structure, weakening the steel by hydrogen embrittlement - so always use only as much time as is absolutely necessary to remove the rust. An advantage of phosphoric acid is that it leaves a fine protective coating of iron phosphate. Because this coating is not thick or durable some protection is still required. Years ago supposedly Volkswagon use a process of phosphating metal prior to painting as it provided a chemical protection against rust under the paint layer.
So, spilling your Coke into your old engine wouldn't really be a bad thing if you were trying to remove some rust. |
Link--> Rust Removal by Coke. ... from Bill's Electrolysis Page. _________________ Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick! |
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Sanctifier Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 1794 Location: Good question!
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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:58 am Post subject: |
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Rust Removal Tip #2: This one's very good.
[email protected] wrote: | February 2, 2008
Machinist's Workshop V20 number 2, April/May 2007, page 35
Article: �Testing Penetrating oils.�
This reports a test of penetrating oils where they measured the force required to loosen
rusty test devices. The details reported here were validated by the original article author.
He also added some details on the methods.
You must buy the issue if you want to see how they did the test.
The back issue is available for purchase.
The table below extracts the results table. The lower the number of pounds the better.
Interesting that a simple mix of acetone and power steering fluid (PSF) works the best!
Penetrating Oil... Average load... Price ($US) per fluid ounce
None ..................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ................... 238 pounds......... $0.25
PB Blaster .............. 214 pounds......... $0.35
Liquid Wrench ........ 127 pounds......... $0.21
Kano Kroil............... 106 pounds......... $0.75
PSF-Acetone mix........53 pounds......... $0.10 (50/50 mix)
Note from original article author:
1) These are loads required to free the test piece after 8 hours of immersion in penetrating oil.
This is probably not representative of a quick squirt just before a wrench is applied.
2) The original article states ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid)was used in the DIY mix.
It was actually PSF. (Power Steering Fluid.) I corrected the table to reflect this.
� Copyright 8 February 2008, [email protected] |
Link--> Testing Penetrating oils. _________________ Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick! |
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MG Man Zorce Klingon Warrior
Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 2683 Location: usually on the back page
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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: |
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what about media blasting?
I've read that ground-up walnut shells are a good for blasting as they do not introduce as much heat to body panels
And then many trinis swear by 'wonda'
I have never used it tho...... _________________
I know it's so, for I told me so |
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Sanctifier Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 1794 Location: Good question!
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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^ ^ ^ I've used Wonda for years. AFAIK it's used as a Rust Preventative, not a Rust Remover.
Walnut shell media is expensive; so it's better used to clean engine parts and machinery, etc.
Baking soda is expensive too... but is more economical for DIY bodywork than Walnut shells.
You know I got these already... We talked about that in June 2007...
Maxus Pressure Pot..................................................... Cyclone Sandblasting Cabinet.
...
As usual... shortage of $$$ got in the way, so it took me ten times longer than it should.
Sanctifier wrote: | Finally added to DIY Pressure Blasting equipment recently.
I got a 24" tube-axial exhaust fan on eBay... Then a friend gave me a NEW drive motor.
Dayton Tubeaxial 24-inch Fan:
Next... Finish the ToyRoom... fabricate Spray booth... and re-start the Projects at last.
#1. Bodywork, Rust Removal & Treatment:
I'll use Baking Soda in Pressure Pot as blast media to remove the paint... (first on 4wd GSR... & later on the rwd GSR)...
Maybe I'll use Garnet for heavy external rust... (rwd GSR)
For internal rust (rwd GSR chassis rails, etc.) I still want to dip the shell in a vat of Washing Soda
and use Electrolysis to remove the rust.
We'll see how the budget goes... |
My $0.02� _________________ Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick!
Last edited by Sanctifier on Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MG Man Zorce Klingon Warrior
Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 2683 Location: usually on the back page
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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yup
it's on my wish list but by time I ready, bouth cars won't need it _________________
I know it's so, for I told me so |
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Sanctifier Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 1794 Location: Good question!
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Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:39 am Post subject: |
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MG Man wrote: | ...but by time I ready, bouth cars won't need it |
Ain't that always the truth!...
That's why I shelved ALL the projects until ToyRoom is finished and equipment is bought.
I only have one go-around at my projects; so I'd like to have the fun (& headaches) of trying to do them right. _________________ Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick! |
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MG Man Zorce Klingon Warrior
Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 2683 Location: usually on the back page
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Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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I rather have them driving........so even if it means they won't be concours, I really not that fussed
If I have the time I will probably strip and powder coat the MG's suspension and re-bush, but if not, just a clean and rebuild.......with the HSR, the goal now is reliability...not too much focus on cosmetics, this time around. In 5 years, I will be hiring your toy room for the strip and rebuild _________________
I know it's so, for I told me so |
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Sanctifier Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 1794 Location: Good question!
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: |
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MG Man wrote: | ...In 5 years, I will be hiring your toy room for the strip and rebuild |
That will only be enough time to finish the E6 Clone and the Evo...
and be about half way through the rwd GSR. _________________ Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick! |
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MG Man Zorce Klingon Warrior
Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 2683 Location: usually on the back page
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:09 am Post subject: |
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as u clearing out stuff, how soon can we arange something with the old 2.3 engine? I want to have it in hand before the hose takes all of my money _________________
I know it's so, for I told me so |
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Sanctifier Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 1794 Location: Good question!
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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ALL my stuff is stuffed into TWO rooms... and I have a lot of stuff.
Let me make some space after the floors are done, then we can get to the Vauxhall stuff. _________________ Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick! |
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MG Man Zorce Klingon Warrior
Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 2683 Location: usually on the back page
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: |
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no probs
only reason I'm bugging u is cuz I have some spare change now and I would like to get it before the house or something else eats it all
I would like to clean it up and have it on permanent display in the garage...and well we know what car it can go in if need be, just waay less power _________________
I know it's so, for I told me so |
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Sanctifier Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 1794 Location: Good question!
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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MG Man wrote: | ...and well we know what car it can go in if need be, just waay less power |
^ ^ ^ Not necessarily... putting DOHC HSR head on Slant-4 block is a fairly straightforward job; so with HSR bits,
power remains the same.
AFAIK SOHC engine also has the following uprated parts as well:
Quote: | Blydenstein Stage 2, Ported, Big Valve Head...
Blydenstein GT2 cam-shaft...
Blydenstein 4:2:1 Extractor Manifold.
I also have other stuff... Blydenstein Competition Gasket Kits,
new Fuel Pumps,
new Kenlowe Electric Fan,
4-speed GT geabox etc. etc. |
At least that's what your Dad mentioned when I bought it years ago, not so? That should be good
for around 130+ BHP with Strombergs... and about 140-145+ BHP with Webers or Dell'Ortos, according
to the DTV SportPart Tuning Manual. That's more than a stock HSR...
Quote: | HSR Maximum power: 136.9 PS (135.0 bhp) (100.7 kW) @ 5500 rpm...
HSR Maximum torque: 182.0 Nm (134 ft�lb) (18.6 kgm) @ 4500 rpm. |
BTW something to think about... If you really want more WHP & WTQ...
There used to be a Turbo kit for the SOHC engine back in the day.
That way, you still leave the OEM DOHC motor intact.
You may need an LSD to really enjoy it though.
My $0.02� _________________ Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick! |
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MG Man Zorce Klingon Warrior
Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 2683 Location: usually on the back page
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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the old HiLux LSD fits on the HSR
I really dont want more than 150whp for two reasons: the torque tube setup won't handle it, and the Getrag box has power limits as well.....the competition cars had a proper driveshaft and ZF gearbox. Thye also had proper upper trailing links. The street HSRs upper links were not functional....they just cut two channels in the floor and mounted the links but the channels and mounting points were weak compared to the competition cars....which is why the lads at Shepreth never bothered to put the upper links on ours. The lower trailing links, roll bar and panhard rod are adequare for 150.....
A stock HSR has 'only' 135bhp on strombergs, and 150 on Dell'ortos. Compare that to the HPF SOHC with 120bhp and you can see how much potential the SOHC has. I was given a ride in a SOHC Firenza with 180WHP
Our car has 135whp, soon to be 150whp (soon being 1 year)
When I said your SOHC was an option, I meant if the head on ours ever failed.....but you are right, the DOHC head is a straightforward bolt on to your engine. That's what I did with the HSR when the block cracked. The short motor I got is a standard 2.3 SOHC lump. I decided to run the standard SOHC pistons rather than go thru the trouble of honing the NEW block to use the HSR pistons.....
Another option is to use an Esprit engine. I have actually seen one in a Chevette and it's again pretty straightforward, with the added benefit of less weight due to the alloy block
Anyway, as soon as you are ready, let me know. It would be interesting to see how the engine has fared after so many years sitting still tho.... _________________
I know it's so, for I told me so |
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Sanctifier Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 1794 Location: Good question!
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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MG Man wrote: | the old HiLux LSD fits on the HSR
I really dont want more than 150whp for two reasons: the torque tube setup won't handle it, and the Getrag box has power limits as well.....the competition cars had a proper driveshaft and ZF gearbox. Thye also had proper upper trailing links. The street HSRs upper links were not functional....they just cut two channels in the floor and mounted the links but the channels and mounting points were weak compared to the competition cars....which is why the lads at Shepreth never bothered to put the upper links on ours. The lower trailing links, roll bar and panhard rod are adequare for 150.....
A stock HSR has 'only' 135bhp on strombergs, and 150 on Dell'ortos. Compare that to the HPF SOHC with 120bhp and you can see how much potential the SOHC has. I was given a ride in a SOHC Firenza with 180WHP
...but you are right, the DOHC head is a straightforward bolt on to your engine. That's what I did with the HSR when the block cracked. The short motor I got is a standard 2.3 SOHC lump...
Another option is to use an Esprit engine. I have actually seen one in a Chevette and it's again pretty straightforward, with the added benefit of less weight due to the alloy block... |
the old HiLux LSD fits on the HSR... Didn't remember that. Thanks. That means you have options available.
lower trailing links, roll bar and panhard rod are adequare for 150... You'll be surprised at what DTV did with
the OEM setup. The DTV SportPart Manual shows how to strengthen the chassis & suspension
(diagrams etc.) and reliably carries the DOHC to a lot more than 150 bhp too. As far as I remember,
it shows how to build a "Works" Trailing Link suspension too.
HPF SOHC with 120bhp... Actually, its 132 BHP (DIN) @ 5,500 RPM & 144 lb.-ft Torque @ 3,200 RPM.
(AutoCar - 23-11-1974.) Remember the SOHC was more torquey than DOHC in Gerry's Ol' Nail too.
SOHC Firenza with 180WHP... Yup... Stage 4R head, GT4X cam, 2 x 48 Dell'Ortos
and 4:2:1 Equal Length DTV Rally Extractors. Now I'm sorry I sold most of that years ago.
to use an Esprit engine... Yup, possible... but AFAIK some work is needed to align water jackets
when using a Lotus head & HSR block.
The 1st "Works" HSRs had Lotus head... but were banned because it was not homologated.
DTV had to revert to using Vauxhall HSR head & block in order to compete. _________________ Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick! |
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MG Man Zorce Klingon Warrior
Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 2683 Location: usually on the back page
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: |
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yup
all the development 'mules' had the Jensen / Lotus engine as well...Graham Robson's book documents it well (mine is signed by Pentti, Brookes, WB Blydenstein and Jerry Johnstone)
As for using an Esprit engine, I meant the whole engine, not a head swap...as you said, it takes a helluva lot of work to match it to the Magnum iron block
The DOHC can easily manage 200 - 240 but again, the work required is quite extensive, and again, requires the ZF / prop shaft rework......the upper links are straightforward, but too much work to install the channels etc if you gonna stay around 150whp
I am quite happy with the 150whp when I get it..........not really interested in the HP race.........the extra 15bhp will basically be a by-product of electronic ignition, vernier cams and improved cooling _________________
I know it's so, for I told me so |
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