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BulletProof
Looking for the Jedi base
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 46
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: WTK: Best way to 500whp? |
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Picking some knowledgeable minds here, although I have some ideas already 
The goal is 500whp/500ft.lbs street-legal (i.e. with MetalCat, not test pipe), no NO2, but will consider methanol w/95 RON or straight out 100 RON.
- Recommendations for engine build/forging if required
- Spoolup at 3000-3500 RPM with nice fat torque curve.
- Excellent handling
- Will get tune/flash locally, also Buschur/Ralliart are both here
As you can probably tell, my goal is to build an Evo that will be respected on the streets (where 280kw V8s roam), and will handle reliably on a circuit. I know that these are usually separate camps, but I want to know if it's possible to live in both worlds, as well as how far can I go?
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obeiron
Sith-ing down in the corner
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 66
Location: Trinidad
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BulletProof
Looking for the Jedi base
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 46
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: |
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^^ That's a bit outta my league and about 100hp above my target. I'd like to stay 2.0 thank you very much
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Sanctifier
Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1794
Location: Good question!
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Jeez, I was hoping that someone else would answer first!
Here's my $0.02� for what it's worth...
| BulletProof wrote: | ...The goal is 500whp/500ft.lbs
...with MetalCat...no NO2...will consider methanol w/95 RON or...100 RON.
- Recommendations for engine build/forging if required
- Spoolup at 3000-3500 RPM with nice fat torque curve.
- Excellent handling
- Will get tune/flash locally, also Buschur/Ralliart are both here
...will handle reliably on a circuit.
...if it's possible to live in both worlds
...how far can I go? |
Last questions first... They are the most important IMHO...
how far can I go?... How big is your budget?... This is going to COST!!! 
possible to live in both worlds... YES!... Reliably too BUT $$$...  (see comment above.)
1st STEPS:-
| Sanctifier wrote: | Change ALL ball-joints, steering ends AND wheel bearings during suspension
upgrade to save time. Check drive-shaft centre bearing mounting bolts. |
BRAKE UPGRADE: -
| Sanctifier wrote: | Next, BEFORE anything else upgrade the brakes: -
Buy 2-piece SLOTTED front rotors (Gyrodisk? / StopTech?) Use OEM calipers.
Reviews suggest that Ferrodo DS 2500 pads are more responsive than OEM Brembo and
are easier on your rotors than other brands. Great for Track days too. DS 3000 also available.
Now that you're SAFE you can start tweaking.  |
SUSPENSION UPGRADE: -
"Excellent handling"..."will handle reliably on a circuit."...
You emphasized "handling" twice so it seems VERY important to you.
| Sanctifier wrote: | GO WHITELINE!... PERIOD! Buy ALL their suspension parts and Coil-over kit for the E7-9.
A "balanced" kit of COMPATIBLE PARTS will give you the best "Street/Track-day" setup.
Buy 2nd set of WIDER (9" to 9� x 17") rims. More Track day adhesion with 'super sticky' radials.
17" tyres cheaper than 18". Also 18" rims reduce acceleration (higher gearing) so IMHO use 17". |
ENGINE UPGRADE: -
| Quote: | Spoolup at 3000-3500 RPM with nice fat torque curve...
500whp/500ft.lbs...
methanol w/95 RON or 100 RON...
I'd like to stay 2.0... |
Spoolup at 3000-3500 RPM with nice fat torque curve...
THIS seems to be your key factor... You want it "streetable!"
The only ways that I know of to get peak WTQ at 3000-35000 rpm or below is as follows:
 RalliArt RS 450 kit (from 1999)... (No longer available.)
EvoGREEN turbo and supporting mods... (see 9sec9's posts on evolutiomn.net)
| Quote: | An EvoGREEN on a 2.0 can give more than 500 lb-ft OR more than 500 WHP... NOT BOTH!
9sec9 got 513 lb-ft. (& 442 whp) AND 537 WHP (& 385 WTQ??) but NOT at the same time. |
EvoGREEN turbo kit AND 2.3 stroker kit...
| Sanctifier wrote: | IF you MUST achieve both then IMHO don't ignore a stroker kit. Reviews say Buschur 'stroker' is reliable to at least 8000+ RPM. That's only 400 RPM more than stock!
IMHO leave a 2.3 stroker at 7600 RPM for even more durability and reliability.
Do you need 9000+ RPM regularly?... or 500+ WTQ all the time... at low rpm?... Your call!
A stroker will make your car a joy to drive as a "daily driver." Perfect for "Jekyll & Hyde" use.
(Other parts costs ALL remain the same. The extra cost of a crank is more than worth it.)
This is the ONE kit than can achieve BOTH 500 WHP AND 500 WTQ at the same time;
with an EvoGREEN turbo (using 95 or 100 RON.)
(Search Druby and Billy T on MLR for 2.3 EvoGREEN reviews.)
BTW for all options; replace oil-pump, water-pump etc as well to guarantee reliability. |
| Quote: | BTW buying a "2.3 short block" is GOOD INSURANCE!... NO bogus machine-work surprises!...
(About $400 more... but worth it.)... (More reliable... NO HEADACHES!) |
An HTA 35-R turbo kit AND 2.4 stroker kit will make the WHP and WTQ
but at a slightly higher rpm... and for BIG $$$ too... (NOT recommended!)
So IMHO, for a RELIABLE, "balanced" Daily-driver / Trackday car...
| Quote: | Do preventative maintenance FIRST!
Upgrade brakes... suspension... rims and tyres.
Go for peak torque (and power) at as low rpm as possible and a WIDE torque range.
(for greater RELIABILITY and LONGER engine life.)
Use a turbo kit that's economical to buy...
gives good milage...
gives you the WTQ / WHP figures you want... |
That leaves you with the following:
CONCLUSION:
| Quote: | Buschur's or JAM's 2.3 stroker kit... (The only extra cost is the 4G64 crank.)
 Don't forget the "stroker short-block" option...
Buschur's Stage 4 kit... including:
Cylinder head... Ported (Send your unit for "core" exchange.)
Intake & Exhaust Manifolds: Ported Buschur units. (Not sure if "core exchange" is possible.)
__BTW stick to cast exhaust manifold... tube headers often crack in daily-drivers.
Larger throttle body:... (Send your unit for "core" exchange.)
Intercooler & piping: Buschur Deluxe (WTQ) or Race (WHP) Front Mount I/C and Upper & Lower I/C pipe kits.
Cams:
__1) Wait for July 08 issue of SCC mag. AMS is doing a review & dyno test (Part II) of popular Evo cams.
__2) Jun 272's or 264's... (The 2.3 capacity should tame the JUN 272's idle... but get Buschur's (and 9sec9's) recommendations first.)
Fuel: Use Walbro hi-pressure 255 litre/min fuel pump.
ECU Tune: Mellon Racing Reflash subscription or local alternative. |
| Quote: | | If you have access to equipment; you can take a shot at porting & gasket-matching your exhaust and intake manifolds to the Buschur head, to save a few $'000 bucks. |
My $0.02�... and $0.02�... and $0.02�... and $0.02�
| Quote: | Yup...Buschur... Buschur... Buschur...
ONLY because he shows dyno sheets for almost ALL his "combinations." |
It's not perfect and will have some gaps but hope that helps.
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Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick!  |
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BulletProof
Looking for the Jedi base
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 46
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Sanctifier wrote: | | Jeez, I was hoping that someone else would answer first! |
| Sanctifier wrote: | | Here's my $0.02� for what it's worth... |
Much much much much more than that IMHO..
| Sanctifier wrote: | | Change ALL ball-joints, steering ends AND wheel bearings during suspension upgrade to save time. Check drive-shaft centre bearing mounting bolts. |
--------Check!
| Sanctifier wrote: | BRAKE UPGRADE: -
Next, BEFORE anything else upgrade the brakes: -
- Buy 2-piece SLOTTED front rotors (Gyrodisk? / StopTech?)
- Use OEM calipers.
Reviews suggest that Ferrodo DS 2500 pads are more responsive than OEM Brembo and are easier on your rotors than other brands. Great for Track days too. DS 3000 also available. |
--------Check!
| Sanctifier wrote: | SUSPENSION UPGRADE: -
"Excellent handling"..."will handle reliably on a circuit."...
You emphasized "handling" twice so it seems VERY important to you.
|
Absolutely. The project goal is an tarmac all-rouder powerhouse.
| Sanctifier wrote: | - GO WHITELINE!... PERIOD!
Buy ALL their suspension parts and Coil-over kit for the E7-9.
A "balanced" kit of COMPATIBLE PARTS will give you the best "Street/Track-day" setup.
- Buy 2nd set of WIDER (9" to 9� x 17") rims. More Track day adhesion with 'super sticky' radials.
- 17" tyres cheaper than 18". Also 18" rims reduce acceleration (higher gearing) so IMHO use 17". |
--------Check, check & check 
| Sanctifier wrote: | ENGINE UPGRADE: -
| Quote: | Spoolup at 3000-3500 RPM with nice fat torque curve...
500whp/500ft.lbs...
methanol w/95 RON or 100 RON...
I'd like to stay 2.0... |
Spoolup at 3000-3500 RPM with nice fat torque curve...
THIS seems to be your key factor... You want it "streetable!"
The only ways that I know of to get peak WTQ at 3000-35000 rpm or below is as follows:
- RalliArt RS 450 kit (from 1999)... (No longer available.)
- EvoGREEN turbo and supporting mods... (see 9sec9's posts on evolutiomn.net)
| Quote: | An EvoGREEN on a 2.0 can give more than 500 lb-ft OR more than 500 WHP... NOT BOTH!
9sec9 got 513 lb-ft. (& 442 whp) AND 537 WHP (& 385 WTQ??) but NOT at the same time. |
- EvoGREEN turbo kit AND 2.3 stroker kit...
IF you MUST achieve both then IMHO don't ignore a stroker kit. Reviews say Buschur 'stroker' is reliable to at least 8000+ RPM. That's only 400 RPM more than stock! |
What about Tomei/HKS Stroker Kits? They're big here and very easy to get. Tomei is reasonably priced. I'd prefer to leave the engine at 2.0L tho.
| Sanctifier wrote: | IMHO leave a 2.3 stroker at 7600 RPM for even more durability and reliability.
Do you need 9000+ RPM regularly?... or 500+ WTQ all the time... at low rpm?... Your call! |
I hear ya... I'm researching 9sec9's posts to see what his curve looks like in the meantime
| Sanctifier wrote: | A stroker will make your car a joy to drive as a "daily driver." Perfect for "Jekyll & Hyde" use.
(Other parts costs ALL remain the same. The extra cost of a crank is more than worth it.)
This is the ONE kit than can achieve BOTH 500 WHP AND 500 WTQ at the same time; with an EvoGREEN turbo (using 95 or 100 RON.)
(Search Druby and Billy T on MLR for 2.3 EvoGREEN reviews.) |
| Sanctifier wrote: | - BTW for all options; replace oil-pump, water-pump etc as well to guarantee reliability.
- BTW buying a "2.3 short block" is GOOD INSURANCE!... NO bogus machine-work surprises!... (About $400 more... but worth it.)... (More reliable... NO HEADACHES!) |
--------Check!
| Sanctifier wrote: | | -An HTA 35-R turbo kit AND 2.4 stroker kit will make the WHP and WTQ but at a slightly higher rpm... and for BIG $$$ too... (NOT recommended!) |
--------Check!
| Sanctifier wrote: | So IMHO, for a RELIABLE, "balanced" Daily-driver / Trackday car...
- Do preventative maintenance FIRST!
- Upgrade brakes... suspension... rims and tyres.
- Go for peak torque (and power) at as low rpm as possible and a WIDE torque range.
(for greater RELIABILITY and LONGER engine life.)
- Use a turbo kit that's economical to buy...
- gives good milage...
- gives you the WTQ / WHP figures you want...
That leaves you with the following:
CONCLUSION:
- Buschur's or JAM's 2.3 stroker kit... (The only extra cost is the 4G64 crank.)
Don't forget the "stroker short-block" option...
- Buschur's Stage 4 kit... including:
Cylinder head... Ported (Send your unit for "core" exchange.)
Intake & Exhaust Manifolds: Ported Buschur units. (Not sure if "core exchange" is possible.)
__BTW stick to cast exhaust manifold... tube headers often crack in daily-drivers.
Larger throttle body:... (Send your unit for "core" exchange.)
Intercooler & piping: Buschur Deluxe (WTQ) or Race (WHP) Front Mount I/C and Upper & Lower I/C pipe kits.
Cams:
__1) Wait for July 08 issue of SCC mag. AMS is doing a review & dyno test (Part II) of popular Evo cams.
__2) Jun 272's or 264's... (The 2.3 capacity should tame the JUN 272's idle... but get Buschur's (and 9sec9's) recommendations first.)
- Fuel: Use Walbro hi-pressure 255 litre/min fuel pump.
- ECU Tune: Mellon Racing Reflash subscription or local alternative.
If you have access to equipment; you can take a shot at porting & gasket-matching your exhaust and intake manifolds to the Buschur head, to save a few $'000 bucks.
Yup...Buschur... Buschur... Buschur...
ONLY because he shows dyno sheets for almost ALL his "combinations."
It's not perfect and will have some gaps but hope that helps. |
Heaps of big help there Wade. My only questions are to the engine internals. Would love to get recommendations on building the block myself instead of getting a built shortblock to compare for budgeting costs.
Thanks again!
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Never meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. |
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Sanctifier
Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1794
Location: Good question!
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the kind words, my friend. Glad you find it helpful.
| BulletProof wrote: | What about Tomei/HKS Stroker Kits? They're big here and very easy to get. Tomei is reasonably priced. I'd prefer to leave the engine at 2.0L tho.
...My only questions are to the engine internals. Would love to get recommendations on building the block myself instead of getting a built shortblock to compare for budgeting costs. |
Yup I'm going to 'DIY' engine assembly myself, after the ToyRoom is finished.
Here you go... Link--> ~ From The Archives ~ A Guide To Engine Blueprinting.
1st "MUST-DO" STEP:
If going the DIY route, make a TORQUE PLATE FIRST!...
A damaged block gives an excellent opportunity for "Blueprinting" a cylinder block during an engine rebuild.
This is what a Torque Plate looks like...
| Goodson's Tools & Supplies wrote: | Cylinder Boring Tips
Lightweight block castings have become very prevalent in our market. Since the overall
mass has been reduced, the controlled stresses have become an important factor in the
block's integrity. To ensure integrity, we must recreate that stress by using a Torque Plate
when boring and honing.
EDIT: Install OLD bearings for temporary protection of main bearing journals.
Torque your main caps in place to correct specifications.
Install a torque plate and torque in place using final assembly torque specifications.
Use stock (OEM) head studs/bolts... too long/too short may abnormally stress the block.
Torque all motor mounts and related accessory brackets (before machining) |
Link --> Goodson's Tools & Supplies - Tech Support
So, long story short...
| Sanctifier wrote: | Take the old block to a Machine Shop.
1st. Let them "DECK" the old block.
. They need to use the main bearing saddles as a datum point during "set-up" AFAIK.
. Now you have a 'true' horizontal surface to use as a 'baseline' for other machining work.
Cut the casting horizontally. [Leaving you with the cylinder-bore section alone.]
Machine [deck] the section to the same thickness as OEM cylinder head.
Drill out threaded bolt-holes to allow fasteners (bolts/studs) to slide through.
There you go... TORQUE PLATE!... made from high density cast-iron (4Gxx blocks) too.
So less twisting than alloy plate = better machined cylinder bores = BETTER piston-ring seal.
Oh, I almost forget to mention... = LONGER engine life = More Torque & Power too.
To further duplicate "real world" cylinder bore loading, use OEM head gasket as well. |
1st BUDGET BUSTER:
| Sanctifier wrote: | DIY port the following...
Cylinder head:
Gasket-match intake & exhaust ports: ONLY remove "casting flash" in ports... and "blend" mating surfaces to manifolds for a smooth transition.
(9sec9 has a thread on evolutionm.net about porting an EvoGREEN that will help.)
Intake & Exhaust Manifold:
If you have access to equipment; you can take a shot at porting & gasket-matching your exhaust and intake manifolds to the Buschur head, to save a few $'000 bucks. |
Would love to get recommendations on building the block myself... Okay... You LIKE headaches!
My first choice is still a 'stroker' short block...
| Quote: | This should answer ALL of your concerns. It will give you the most info on 4G63 strokers that I've EVER seen. I haven't even read the whole thing yet...
Link--> 4G63 Stroke Or Not - Engineering Analysis. |
2nd BUDGET BUSTER: Buy a stroker kit to suit your budget...
Tomei is reasonably priced... Didn't know that. Then your options can expand a bit.
IMHO huge WTQ at low rpm is more valuable than high peak rpm for a "Jekyll & Hyde" daily driver.
A stroker is even MORE VIABLE now... The choices remain 2.3... 2.2... or 2.1.
The slightly smaller 2.2 should perform even better with an EvoGREEN turbo.
Last price I saw from Tomei was over $6k US though...
| GSCMotorsports wrote: | GSC 2.2L Kit only $3569...
Rods: 1.67RR Custom C-of-C length (1000whp capable) 571grams
crank: 4340 chro-mo , Nitrited, and light at 30 pounds (1500WHP capable)
pistons 86mm (coated), 9310 wrist pins, locks and rings (9.5 or 8.5 Comps)
bearings, Clevite 77 Main/Rod Bearings and Mitsu Thrust
ARP main studs.
everything you need for the install minus a little block boring.
Greg |
| GSCMotorsports wrote: | i have put a 8500 rev limit on our kit. you can twist it to 9k as the piston speeds would be in the 5500fpm range about the same as a 2.3 at 8300... the quality of the parts is there to turn it that hard. i just wont say do it ever day if your running out 4th in the quarter than fine. road racing it i wouldnt turn it that high nore will you need to.
At 9600 rpms piston speeds would be over 6000fpm that is about the same as reving a 2.3 to 9100 or a 2.0 to 10200..... i will not be suggesting that as it is pretty much WARP Speed as far as the pistons are concerned.
Greg |
Slowboy Racing has gotten a few bad reviews for some products in the past though...
An 'ideal' build would be a destroked 4G64 2.1 short block + EvoGREEN...
but IMHO it looks like the 'economy' option is still a DIY 2.3 stroker KIT + EvoGREEN.
Everybody's $0.02�...
_________________
Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick!
Last edited by Sanctifier on Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:15 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Sanctifier
Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1794
Location: Good question!
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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MORE IMPORTANT DATA FOR 'DIY' ENGINE ASSEMBLY:
STROKER SPECIFICATIONS:
Here's a pretty informative 'stroker' thread with 'specs' from evom.net...
Link--> end all 2.3 2.4 2.1 stroker big block thread
Jackson Auto Machine ENGINE ASSEMBLY PROCEEDURE:
Link--> Inside a JAM shortblock.
More to come...
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obeiron
Sith-ing down in the corner
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 66
Location: Trinidad
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Great info as always Sanctifier. Will certainly talk to you if I ever decide to mod my viii  |
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Porn Star
Pumpum Conqueror
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 19
Location: wit yo momma !!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I decided to look at building the ultimate street car as well. Extremely fast in a straight line, but also a beast in the corners. Torque > Horsepower.
Besides, with the mount of money people spending on their drag cars, I really can't afford to compete with that.
Suspension: Looking at getting a set of Robispec tuned DMS 50mm. Yes, I know its overkill. 
Engine: Recently obtained a Peter Moody Built and Blueprinted Engine. Engine has 0 miles on it. Was the spare engine for a circuit car that used to run away from Porsche GT3's in Costa Rica.... 
Engine is complete with turbo etc. Plug and play business.
Management: Was looking at the motec, but another tuner convinced me that the AEM EMS has alot more support in this region.
Engine supposedly has no lag whatsoever. 
Hopefully by next week we will see how things work out.
Sanctifier, been trying to get a hold of you. Please call me.
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Sanctifier
Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1794
Location: Good question!
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Porn Star wrote: | | ...Sanctifier, been trying to get a hold of you. Please call me. |
^ ^ ^ Yup, called. BTW congrats on the new engine. With the RobiSpec coilovers and Moody
engine, it looks like we have a new 'dex killer on our hands.
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Sanctifier
Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1794
Location: Good question!
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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HEADS UP!... Thanks to Haywire for the info. Bullet this one's for you...
Link--> Something Wicked This Way Comes! - 500+ whp!... ON PUMP GAS!
IMHO this is still too "hairy" in a Daily Driver (needs to lower peak spool rpm) but with
more R&D may be perfect in a Weekend Warrior.
_________________
Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick!
Last edited by Sanctifier on Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:04 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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Sanctifier
Zorce Moderator
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1794
Location: Good question!
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Another HEADS UP! Bullet.
This one is on the quality of cylinder head porting and machine work generally.
Pay attention to comments made about Jackson Auto Machine.
Link--> Piss poor head work.
Here's the other side of the coin...
Link--> Business advice-What would you do?
Seems that Buschur (and DynoFlash... ) are fighting with another Speed Shop AGAIN.
I can't verify, since neither party is unbiased.
My $0.02�
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